Tuesday, October 24, 2006

Here we go, again.....

The old argument of property rights Vs. God-given, Inherent, Inalienable Rights. Has raised its ugly head yet again. The argument is going on at Keep and Bear Arms, and is now in its second day. Following are a few of the comments I've submitted on the topic:

Actually, business, government and people are ALL bound by the U.S. Constitution, if they are in the territory of the United States. That IS the TRUE intent. To Wit:

"The defence of one’s self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law. This principle of defence is not confined merely to the person; it extends to the liberty and the property of a man: it is not confined merely to his own person; it extends to the persons of all those, to whom he bears a peculiar relation -- of his wife, of his parent, of his child, of his master, of his servant: nay it extends to the person of every one, who is in danger; perhaps, to the liberty of every one, whose liberty is unjustly and forcibly attacked. It becomes humanity as well as justice."

- James Wilson, 'Of the Natural Rights of Individuals', 1790-1792 (Signed the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, Congressman, Delegate to the Constitutional Convention and Supreme Court Justice).

"But if the execution of the laws of the national government should not require the intervention of the State legislatures, if they were to pass into immediate operation upon the citizens themselves, the particular governments could not interrupt their progress without an open and violent exertion of an unconstitutional power. No omissions nor evasions would answer the end. They would be obliged to act, and in such a manner as would leave no doubt that they had encroached on the national rights."

- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #16

I don't care what nine perverse usurping monkeys with black robes on say. I KNOW what the Constitution says and means. NO ONE has the right to divest us of our BIRTHRIGHT.

If anyone wants to enjoy the OTHER benefits of Liberty, than they have NO RIGHT to divest their fellow-citizens of a God-given, Inherent an[d] Natural Right!


"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ...If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"

- Samuel Adams

"...were under the sway of powerful combination, properly known as "Ku-Klux Klan," the objects of which were, by force and terror, to prevent all political action not in accord with the views of the members, to deprive colored citizens of the right to bear arms, and of the right to a free ballot; to suppress schools in which colored children were taught, and to reduce the colored people to a condition closely akin to that of slavery; that these combinations were organized and armed and had rendered the local laws ineffectual to protect the classes whom they desired to oppress...."

- Pres. US Grant, 4/19/1872

Those, that don't want us to be armed, look upon us as SLAVES. Those who attempt to disarm us intend on being our 'masters'.Notice how, that once we started becoming 'uppity' they moved most of our manufacturing overseas?All the 'workers', (read slaves/subjects), in China are now disarmed, aren't they? These 'people' don't care a bit about the rights of man. Their sole end aim and purpose is 'mammon'. And our greedy servants in government bought right into their greed. And assisted in their destruction of our manufacturing base. Greed, and lust for domination is what is destroying our rights, and our country. Would you want an armed populace/workers/shoppers if you were a greedy tyrant?

"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe."

"...the EQUAL and independent Station to which the Laws of NATURE and of NATURE'S GOD ENTITLE them...We hold these Truths to be SELF-EVIDENT; that all Men are created EQUAL and independent; that from that EQUAL Creation they derive RIGHTS INHERENT and UNALIENABLE; among which are the PRESERVATION of Life, and Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness; that to SECURE these Ends, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the...." - Declaration, First Draft

"The First Law of Nature is that every man ought to endeavour peace, as far as he has hope of obtaining it; and when he cannot obtain it, that he may seek and use all helps and advantages of war."

"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Anyone that seeks to disarm me, is not my friend, or my employer. Nor, are they a TRUE American government 'official'. Much less a TRUE American PERIOD

No, those that seek to disarm me, are in fact my ENEMY......

"In short, it is the greatest absurdity to suppose it in the power of one, or any number of men, at the entering into society, to renounce their essential natural rights, or the means of preserving those rights; when the grand end of civil government, from the very nature of its institution, is for the support, protection, and defence of those very rights; the principal of which, as is before observed, are Life, Liberty, and Property. If men, through fear, fraud, or mistake, should in terms renounce or give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the grand end of society would absolutely vacate such renunciation The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of man to alienate this gift and voluntarily become a slave."- Samuel Adams and Benjamin Franklin, The Rights of the Colonists

"...a private business's choice to prohibit licensed patrons from carrying a handgun for self-defense."According to the Constitution, they have NO such choice:"We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles. The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent....that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed..."

- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors

You want Liberty? Than you better learn to let others have theirs. NO ONE has the Right to divest us of our God-given, Inherent Right.

Comment by: Cal45acp (10/24/2006)

Let's see which came first, the instinct for self preservation or the business man. I do believe that almost every creature was created, by whatever means, with the instinct to survive. Also that instinct came long, long before any kind of business. It has been called the first "LAW of NATURE" and it was written long, long time before any of the artificial laws of man.The business man is the one that is obligated to recognise that first law. He should not be in business if he wants to restrict anyones instinctive right to life. He should find other work.The argument that a business/property owner can restrict that instinct is the same one the Anti Gunners use in talking about "Reasonable Restrictions". One man controls anothers life.


JR said...

There is a major difference between private properties and commercial properties.

Commercial properties are open to the public and are regulated by many local, state and federal laws.

Commercial properties invite "all" of the public onto the premises. Private properties invite only those that are welcome.

Commercial property rights are vastly different from private property rights. Just as commercial properties can not prohibit a certain class of individuals due to race or gender, they can not prohibit a class of individuals due to the fact that they have taken upon themselves the responsibility of self protection.

It is law that commercial enterprises operate under OSHA, EPA and other regulations. These commercial enterprises also operate under natural law and the constitution. There should be no discussion about the legitimacy of carrying a firearm into a commercial enterprise. It should be understood to be right.

It is a sad state that we do have to discuss this, and even sadder that freedom and liberty loving individuals are on opposite sides of this issue.

E. David Quammen said...

10/4. Heart rendering, IMO. I'm an hard-core Constitutionalist. Believing it as it was clearly intended. Believe that it has been perverted, subverted and twisted almost to beyond recognition.

Don't think that what we have today resembles what the intentions were in the slightest degree. If I knew of a country with true freedom, and had the wherewithal - I'd be long gone.

Can't see us maintaining even the slightest appearance of true freedom and liberty much longer. It will terminate into a dictatorship, just as all the others have down throughout history. Unless some serious reversals are made soon, America is over.

strehlem said...

That thread has to be one of the best I've ever seen over at KABA. Your research and command of not only the Constitution, but the Framer's intent is patently obvious.

Wish a few more folks would get over here to see the rest of your work.

Maybe you ought to start running a mirror site - before something happens to all the great work you've posted here?

E. David Quammen said...

Thank you, bud, I'm honored by your comments. But, the credit must go to whom it is due - The Lord God. For it is Him whom I ask to direct and guide me. Of myself, I am nothing. If anything good springs forth from me, it is from Him. I'll still take credit when I mess up though ;)

The 'other' site is the main one:


Which has a complete history of our Right up into the early 1900's. As well as just about everything else concerning guns.

Have a good one, man. Enjoyed your comments on that KABA thread as well!

strehlem said...

Okay, You finally got me turned around:

The Jefferson quote in the last paragraph below is the nail in the coffin on my "private property vs RKBA" position - I was wrong over at KABA - but I'm man enough to admit it.

To disarm a man is to take his power, and all power is vested in the people, wether or not they choose to avail themselves of it. I can see power comes before property in the proper course of the exercise of liberty...

"...a private business's choice to prohibit licensed patrons from carrying a handgun for self-defense."According to the Constitution, they have NO such choice:"We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles. The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent....that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed..."

- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors

strehlem said...

and cal45acp is dead on...

E. David Quammen said...

strehlem - "I was wrong over at KABA"

Bud, not 'wrong' according to the information you were operating under at the time. You became better informed, and had the humility to allow reason and facts in. That, my friend, is the mark of a true 'man' that admits. For most refuse to even allow the light of reason to penetrate the veil of darkness. (As seen with most of the anti's). Besides, we've had years of 'misinformation', or no information, thrown at us.

The Truth, does indeed, set Free.

It took me almost a year of intense study to uncover all the information and make logical sense of it. There were a LOT of pieces to the puzzle. Once the puzzle was nearing completion, it hit me what the founders were really trying to do.

It ALL centers on the fact that our rights are gifts from God. And that We The People ARE the Sovereign Authority. How can we disarm ourselves? In a 'democracy' it would be possible, but not in a Constitutional Republic. Especially with a people that have a hunger for true Freedom and Liberty.

As pointed out by Benjamin Franklin here:

" This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins."

Our enemies deliberately stopped the flow of TRUE information to us in school. They have been doing it for decades.